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Censoring is still alive and well in the good ol' USA (Page 1)
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Richard Clark on Audio ARCHIVE
Censoring is still alive and well in the good ol' USA (Page 1)
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| This topic is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Richard Clark on Audio |
| Author | Topic: Censoring is still alive and well in the good ol' USA |
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Dick unregistered Posts: 40 |
posted March 30, 2000 01:49 PM
this is lame there was a cople of good discussions on the 15 farad cap against the regular can style caps, and now they are all gone. i can find one in the search, but when i click on the link, it says that it has been removed. i want to show my friend that post, because the pheonix gold guy had some information that my friend is interested in is it still there, or was it erased by richard clark because he does not agree with it. kinda looks like someone cant handle anything resembling the truth |
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PoundMutt Senior Member Posts: 1659 |
posted March 30, 2000 02:40 PM
You're not a "Dick", you're a "WUSS" (Grin). If you had given your REAL e-mail address, I could've sent you that "The CAP" post from the PG Guy! ------------------ |
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Tamerz Member Posts: 10 |
posted March 30, 2000 02:41 PM
I was listening to both sides trying to make my own decisions. At least Cade tried to have a discussion. Oh well. ------------------ |
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Big 10 Senior Member Posts: 68 |
posted March 30, 2000 03:17 PM
Could you send it to me? -Big 10- |
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Richard Clark Moderator Posts: 1845 |
posted March 30, 2000 06:24 PM
You guys can bet your life on one thing for sure. I would not be so little as to remove the post if someone showed me to be wrong. If I were proven wrong I would be man enough to admit it. The decision to remove the post came from higher up than me and I ain't talking about GOD. When I was asked to do this I was told the subject matter would be "opinions, issues, and controversy" that pertain to audio. Perhaps the title will be changed. I am not allowed to continue with this subject but the $5k is still sitting here. You all know where I am. If I have seen farther than other men it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants [This message has been edited by Richard Clark (edited 03-30-2000).] [This message has been edited by Richard Clark (edited 03-30-2000).] |
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PoundMutt Senior Member Posts: 1659 |
posted March 30, 2000 07:17 PM
I believe you are correct, Mr. Clark, in your assesment of the difficulty if not impossibility of hearing any difference between two different QUALITY amplifiers. I also believe you are correct in your general assessment of capacitors and their AUDIBLE affect on music reproduction. However, the difference the PG version of The C.A.P. made in the Phoenix Gold vehicle was not an SQ difference (Even if they THOUGHT it was). Their use of 2 C.A.P.s enabled them to maintain voltage to the amps at 14.2 volts EVEN AT PEAK CURRENT DRAW which was not possible WITHOUT The C.A.P.s. It probably made the peak SPL higher, although that was not written in the post. ------------------ |
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powertrip Member Posts: 7 |
posted March 31, 2000 01:27 PM
poundmutt... It all depends on what one means by sounding better... The fact that our amplifiers use a non-regulated power supply means that in a serious under-voltage situation, such as the one that we had in our truck (to me, 190 amps of alternator, 4 batteries, and 9 1.2F caps, and only having 10.8VDC was serious), is that the amplifier will start to clip when driven anything past moderate volumes. 10 Volts is an un-healthy situation for 99% of all amps out there, and ours is no exception. When switching to the PowerCore's, and the resulting "magical" apperance of the potential that I KNEW was supposed to be there, the stereo system went from Mr. Hyde to Dr. Jeckyl, where it belonged. The system transformed from a "not-to-bad" (IMHO) sounding system, with limited transient response, to a "OH MY GOD" system, with the dynamic headroom CLEARLY increased from before (man, it sounded clearly better), and increased the peak SPL substantially. The before and after, in our own case, is black and white. ONCE AGAIN!!! I am not saying that it will matter in every case, but imaging having 3600 watts RMS power, and trying to get it at 10-11VDC, and then increasing to 14VDC with 30F (2600 Joules) of capacitace behind it. Oh, and one more bullet to be fired on these caps... I guess that in our situation in the demo truck, the ESR dropped even more from the 0.0170 ohms to 0.0085 ohms, due to the fact that there were two PowerCore's wired in parallel. Or so I am told (by EE's) and by my own "dumb-ass" calculations. ------------------ |
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Scott Buwalda Senior Member Posts: 343 |
posted March 31, 2000 01:41 PM
Cade: I am interested by your last remark...two in parallel. Could you tell me more, or are you in fact done with this forum? If you're done, e-mail me, please. Scott ------------------ |
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Thunderforce Toyota Senior Member Posts: 286 |
posted March 31, 2000 01:54 PM
Pound Mutt, can you email me the discussion please hzemall@home.com Thanks ------------------ Comooo3470 The Official HzEmall Website www.hzemall.com "keep away from people who will try to belittle your ambitions, they are small people who will never allow you to become great" |
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Focal Senior Member Posts: 310 |
posted March 31, 2000 03:07 PM
T-Force Toyota, You can read both posts in their entirety here: http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000311.html Focal ------------------ |
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solosier Member Posts: 3 |
posted March 31, 2000 05:37 PM
i am still getting one of those CAPs. i have yet to meet a person that used on in their car and hasn't enjoyed it. whether it works, or is a good value means very little compared to "will i like it?" ------------------ |
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Richard Clark Moderator Posts: 1845 |
posted March 31, 2000 09:36 PM
Lesson 1 Ok powertrip how about we have a discussion in basic electrical theory. At the end of this thread you should be the one that can explain to the world that according to ohms law it is impossible for these things to do any good. That is of course if you can admit that they do obey ohms law. We will do this a little at a time so how about you humor me and stick to my questions. We will do them a couple at a time so everyone can follow along. Lets do a little calculation. Suppose we have a resistor that is .017 ohms(seventeen milliohms). I think that is what you say the ESR of the giant caps is. The ones i have seen have measured higher but i will give you the benefit of the doubt. According to ohms law how many volts are dropped across .017 ohms if 100 amps of current are flowing? How about if we up the current to 300 amps? Lets establish the answers to these questions before we go any farther. If we can't agree on the answer to this there is no hope we will ever get to the truth. [This message has been edited by Richard Clark (edited 04-01-2000).] |
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Jake Ryker Senior Member Posts: 266 |
posted April 01, 2000 01:15 AM
This might actually start to get interesting as well informative at the same time. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Jake Ryker (edited 04-01-2000).] |
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David_Vestfal Senior Member Posts: 183 |
posted April 01, 2000 03:51 AM
E=I x R so... E=100 x .017 = 1.7 E=300 x .017 = 5.1 I hope i'm right otherwise i'll look like an idiot. |
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nasty Senior Member Posts: 44 |
posted April 01, 2000 04:24 PM
yes, david, you are right, but what does this question have to do with the CAP not having a low enough ESR Richard? i believe that Cade already did all these equations and worked everything out IN DETAIL in the original post that you deleted. ------------------ |
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BSmith Member Posts: 13 |
posted April 01, 2000 05:28 PM
Remember that old TV series Kung Fu? In the immortal words of Master Po |
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Richard Clark Moderator Posts: 1845 |
posted April 01, 2000 10:35 PM
lesson 2 Thanks David you are exactly right. If anyone wants this explained please ask david to clarify it. If everyone is going to follow this and understand fully the final conclusion it is important that no one miss any steps. There will be about ten lessons. Since power trip has left the building we will continue with the rest of the class. ESR stands for equivalent series resistance. This means exactly what it sounds like. It means that if we have a source of voltage it will behave exactly as if it has a resistor of the same value in series with it's output. An amplifier has ESR. A powersupply has ESR. A battery has ESR, and yes a cap has ESR. Components have ESR because we do not have perfect conductors to make things from. Now for the homework. Last night we learned that if 100 amps flows through .017 ohms there will be a voltage drop of 1.7 volts. And if the amp flow increases to 300 amps the voltage drop will increase to 5.1 volts. For the sake of theory only lets say we have built the largest cap in the universe. Billions and Billions of Farads. It's plates are made of a newly discovered material we'll call unobtanium. This new material has no resistance therefore our super cap has an ESR of ZERO ohms. We charge the cap to 14.2 volts. We then place a resistor with a value of .017 ohms in series with one of the terminals of this cap. The question is: If we place a load that draws 100 amps from this cap what will the resulting voltage be on the load side of the resistor? What will the voltage be on the cap side of the resistor? What about if we increase the load to 300 amps? What will the voltages be on each side of the resistor? [This message has been edited by Richard Clark (edited 04-01-2000).] |
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ZPAlex Senior Member Posts: 40 |
posted April 01, 2000 10:50 PM
The voltage on the cap side would be 14.2 volts, because regardless of load that huge cap will maintain 14.2. On the load side, at 100amps draw the voltage would be 12.5, and at a 300amp draw the voltage would be 8.9. This is assuming of course there is no other source of power on the load side. Like a car battery or an alternator! I can see where this is going |
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nasty Senior Member Posts: 44 |
posted April 01, 2000 11:06 PM
all these calculations are still not going to take into account and show that the CAP CANNOT fill in the delay that a voltage regulator takes to make the alternator keep the voltage up......which is why a cap is used.....to fill in that void. so, the question is, how fast does a capacitance product have to be to fill in that void. there should be some comparisons of the units of time here, but i have a feeling that there won't be, but i'll humor myself and keep up with these "lessons". Richard, there really is no reason to do these calculations, because the people who don't know how to do these calculations have no argument here. all these calculations are still not going to be answering the question of why the CAP does or does not work. but thanks anyway Richard. i learned all of these lessons two years ago in Pysics 100. ------------------ |
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chev2 Senior Member Posts: 51 |
posted April 01, 2000 11:26 PM
Out of defense for Powertrip. He is very Rarely if ever on the internet on the weekends. Due to other obligations. So Mr. Clark please do not take cheap shots at people you dont know. I'am sure powertrip will be interested in this during the week. [This message has been edited by chev2 (edited 04-01-2000).] |
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Richard Clark Moderator Posts: 1845 |
posted April 01, 2000 11:36 PM
Nasty. be patient and i assure you that all your questions will be answered. the reason i am being so methodical is because when i get done everyone capable of doing simple elementry grade school math will have this figured out. We will cover the time issue when we get to ESL. For now be patient as not everyone has an education as advanced as yours. And chev what did i say that was rude? I sure don't want to offend a friend of my stockbroker. |
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ZPAlex Senior Member Posts: 40 |
posted April 01, 2000 11:48 PM
Nasty,iIf that is all there is to caps?? I'll just full field my alternator and throw those useless caps away!!! I think the average person has no idea how a cap works. People think they are like a standard battery. Chev is right, Give Cade some credit. He will definitely be interested in this discussion. |
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Richard Clark Moderator Posts: 1845 |
posted April 02, 2000 01:08 AM
Alex first let me say that you almost got your answers right. The 8.9 should have been 9.1 but since you were so close it is obvious that you understand what's happening. Just a simple math error. I'm not so good at it either. But don't get ahead of the class. You may think you see where we are headed but you are really going to be surprised to see where we are actually going to end up. As for my comments to cade. Yes I was upset at his comments. I could not believe the attitude of his post. I took it not as a sincere inquiry but a matter of fact statement with a "dare to disprove" presentation. Yes his math was right but it had little to do with the issue he raised. He provided enough facts in his posts to prove himself wrong. I thought everyone could see that. And when people give testimonials to support a failed assumption I really get confused. Audio just seems to be filled with that. Everybody seems to make such a big deal that lots of competitors use these things. That still doesn't mean anything if the facts don't add up. It just means they are mistaken. Let me tell you a story that is true. I can let you call the man involved if you would like to check out it's authenticity. A friend of mine was on a pit crew at Indy several years back. The team he was on was tearing up the track in qualifying. They had the pole position. Everyone was watching them intently to see what their secret was. Early in the day someone had accidently dropped a hammer and put a small dent in one of the tailpipes on the car. Somebody must have spotted it. The next day almost every body that was running that kind of car had a dent in exactly the same place! Now you would think that by the time someone got to Indy ------- I studied Psychology in college and had to give it up. I have no trouble with physics but I just don't understand people. Already I can see that from your comments on the last questions you can see he is wrong if we go no farther. But you can bet that even when it is as plain as the sun in the noon sky there will still be a few that will say "i don't care about the facts I know what i hear" |
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David_Vestfal Senior Member Posts: 183 |
posted April 02, 2000 03:39 AM
Thats a pretty funny story Richard. I need some electives for college. Maybe I should take a few Phychology classes. Sounds like fun! |
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Richard Clark Moderator Posts: 1845 |
posted April 02, 2000 05:17 PM
David if you really want to have an experience study crowd Psychology. Analyze why people will kill each other over the outcome of a soccer game. And we credit ourselves with being the most advanced inhabitants on this planet. [This message has been edited by Richard Clark (edited 04-02-2000).] |
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Richard Clark Moderator Posts: 1845 |
posted April 02, 2000 05:23 PM
Lesson 3 Ok now that we have studied ESR and understand what it is and it’s effect on the working of a circuit we will move on to another subject. But don’t forget about ESR as it is one of the important final building blocks in our search for truth about caps and we will come back to it. Today we will review the important concepts about total energy storage in a device like a cap. This has been covered in earlier posts (and I will say quite correctly) but I am going to expand on it as well as reiterate it for those who did not get to read it. Besides, I think I can simplify it a little. |
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shootme Senior Member Posts: 688 |
posted April 02, 2000 08:56 PM
I feel like I'm in school. Hope I don't mess this up! P=IV, assuming 14.2 volts and 65 amps, That sound right? |
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Big 10 Senior Member Posts: 68 |
posted April 02, 2000 09:21 PM
Richard, I just have one question before you continue. If we are alredy down to 9.1 volts, how can this system even turn on? I know for a fact that my PPI amps will not even turn on with 9 volts, they just go into protection. So if what you are saying is correct (based on the numbers it is.. but I will admit that I have no idea on how caps work because I dont use them)how does his system even play? What am I missing here?
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Richard Clark Moderator Posts: 1845 |
posted April 02, 2000 09:22 PM
Well you are close but try one more time. Remember the open circuit voltage of a fully charged lead acid battery is 12.8 volts. And while we are at it what is significant about the term open circuit? |
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Richard Clark Moderator Posts: 1845 |
posted April 02, 2000 09:31 PM
Big ten. Please just follow along and it will become obvious. I am building a case by educating the jury. Make sure you understand each of the lessons. You are starting to have reasonable doubts but it still isn't clear. Already you see a problem and that shows you are thinking. The secret is that his caps aren't keeping the system on or anything else but wait till we get there. After the ten or so lessons I will close on this like Bailey on Furman. But by then everybody will already know the truth. [This message has been edited by Richard Clark (edited 04-04-2000).] |
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David_Vestfal Senior Member Posts: 183 |
posted April 03, 2000 02:23 AM
Watts = volts x amps battery: 12.8 volts/65 amps watts = 12.8 x 65 = 832 watts/second 3600 seconds = one hour 832 x 3600 = 2,995,200 watts/hour one joule = one watt/second 2,995,200 joules/hour ??????? |
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David_Vestfal Senior Member Posts: 183 |
posted April 03, 2000 02:36 AM
open circuit on a battery means that no load is being taken from it, right? |
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STACKHOUSE1 Senior Member Posts: 987 |
posted April 03, 2000 02:44 PM
The question was how many joules does this represent? well, a joule can provide a watt per second. And our battery can sustain 65amps per hour. SO how many seconds in an hour? 3600 secs in an hour. (60min X 60sec) So if I divide 65 amps by 3600 (sec) that will give me 0.018 amps per second. but wait. Power equals IxE Open circuit voltage of a batt is 12.8 x 65amps is 832 watts for one hour 832x3600=2995200 wheres my damn ohms law chart....? ------------------ Why you trippin? |
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nasty Senior Member Posts: 44 |
posted April 03, 2000 05:06 PM
yes, david and stackhouse you are right. just went two different ways to get the answer. now, let's move on. can we please speed up these lessons david? ------------------ |
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Richard Clark Moderator Posts: 1845 |
posted April 04, 2000 01:44 AM
David---you are right almost. It is not joules/hour. It is just joules. If I asked you how much gas your car tank holds you would say 14 gallons. Not 14 gallons per hour. If I asked about your fuel pump capacity you might say 14 gallons per hour. Joules is the total stored energy. If we use it up fast it will not last as long. If we use it slowly it will take longer. Get it? Stackhouse you are almost right too. As for the calculations it is obvious that you both understand the principles. But to convince beyond all doubt we must not leave any facts clouded. The unfortunate fact is that you are right when you say that the battery had 3 million joules in it. But we can never use all of those joules. Why not? Because when we remove them we have to pull them through the ESR of the battery. This causes a voltage drop and a loss of energy. The higher the ESR the less we get out of what is in the device. It is the loss across the ESR that causes a battery to heat up under load. Lesson 4 In the actual real world the voltage of the battery would drop a little from it's open circuit voltage of 12.8 v with a 65 amp load. In the case of the yellow top it's actual voltage at 65 amps is about 12.2v when fully charged. By the end of the hour it would be down to about 10v. If we use 11 as an average our answer would be........ 2,574,000. Now that's still a lot of joules! Now actually this is not enough to totally kill the battery but at this point there isn't much left in it. This brings us to a very important fact. The energy in a battery will be depleted almost completely by the time it is down to 10 volts. By the time we have removed those 2.5 million joules from the battery it probably doesn't have more than a hundred thousand joules left. We can almost totally deplete the battery's energy and never drop below 10 volts. This is because the battery doesn't store electricity. It stores chemicals. A chemical reaction produces the electricity. Storing actual electrical charges is very inefficient. Look at our poor capacitor. Even if we made one as big as a battery it would still only be good for perhaps fifty to one hundred thousand joules---less than that left in a nearly dead battery. But if that were not enough there's more bad news. This exercise will be tonights homework.
[This message has been edited by Richard Clark (edited 04-04-2000).] |
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The Buzz Senior Member Posts: 424 |
posted April 04, 2000 03:33 AM
hmm.. let me knock the dust off my calc and try not to butcher this to badly.. 20 F cap. If I understood the fuel pump analogy you are saying that you can only use 960 J of the 1960 J (49%) before the battery is nearly depleted, leaving 1000 J unused ? |
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lawaetz Member Posts: 4 |
posted April 04, 2000 03:50 AM
<If we use that cap in a system and load it <till it drops to 10 volts along with our <battery how many joules will we have removed <from the cap? How many joules will remain in <the cap that we can never benefit from if <our system never drops below 10 volts? I dont get it. How is it relevant to talk about 10 Volts, you will hopefulle never have a system that drops to 10 Volts. It seems like you will prove to us, that the cap doesnt work, by making all sorts of measurements and calculations. Have you - Richard - ever tryed a C.A.P or a PowerCore in your system ? I have seen that others have, and they all said they had a big difference, both measuring the voltage, and in sound quality. Isnt it what its all about - if there is a audioble difference or not ? JMO Lawaetz. |
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Audiophyle Senior Member Posts: 207 |
posted April 04, 2000 09:30 AM
Richard, I believe is using that number because that is a number that Cade threw out to him. Or maybe because that's the number he used on his battery analogy... Hell, I dont know, just following the dramady as it unfolds. ------------------ If it dont fit, force it... if it breaks, it needed to be replaced anyway... |
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dilly yo Senior Member Posts: 137 |
posted April 04, 2000 12:08 PM
I've been following this thread and subject for a couple of weeks and I am amazed by the ignorance that some of us project. I am not and engineer, but I am a scientist. I just have a few comments about some of the people on this forum. First, Nasty, you are a down-right idiot. Your sarcasm is obnoxious and I could only imagine your maturity level. The point you made about learning these lessons two years ago is retarded! All theories are based on basic principles. The formulas always stay the same! The subject matter or problem at hand is the VARIABLE! As for Lawaetz, I don't know your occupation or education, but in regards to the speaker cables. It's amazing that audio enthusiasts believe in the effects of psycho-acoustics, but don't belive that their mind is tricking themselves into beliveing one set of speaker wire sounds different than the other( type being equal). So, as we go through these lessons and mathematically obtain data (since electrical theory is a hard sience) we will establish definative conclusion. After that I'm sure the argument will be " But I know I heard a difference in my car and thats all that matters". But, it's at this point that we all have to remember the power of the mind. What we think we hear or do hear is a subjective matter. No one can prove you wrong THAT YOU HEAR THE DIFFERENCE!!! It's your mind. You can't tell a schizophrenic that he doesn't see his visual hallucinations because to him they are there! Is what you see everyday really there or is it something made up by your mind?! Your perception of stimuli in this world is attributed to interpretations of electrical signals. Can you really trust what you see or hear?! I guess if we didn't we would go nuts. But you should be able to see our perception is easily skewed due to outside factors. Just look at the germans during WWII. Are we to belive that all those people were born bad or is it more reasonable to belive that the mind is not as strong as we belive and alot of us put in the same situation would have done the same things. It's been proven in many stidies so don't doubt it. I think it all comes down to if anyone out there feels that the caps make a difference then take richard up on his 5,000 dollar offer. Even Lamaetz, if you paid 4000 for a ticket from denmark you would still come out 1000 ahead! 5000-4000=1000 (now thats basic principles!!!) For cade and nasty, shit, you live in the usa. It's a no-brainer for you guys! Nothing like being in a controlled enviroment and performing blind studies to see what the real facts are. Heck, if think you could hear audible differences in amps then you could really come out ahead. 10000+5000=15000. 15000-price of ticket=whole lotta god damn money!!! Nasty, I learned that in first grade! So go ahead. Be a true man of facts and take the challenge. For cade, you could probably get your company to pay for you to go out there since you would be supporting their product and if I were you I would have a contract made up that states the results of the tests be published. So since your sure of yourself your company would get even more exposure. But, hey I'm only a chemist. |
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Jake Ryker Senior Member Posts: 266 |
posted April 04, 2000 01:21 PM
Well put Dilly Yo. It is amazing what extremes people will go to if they have a medium to go through (ex. This forum). Everyone is trying to say Richard is wrong but nobody is actually saying they will step up to the plate and take the challenge for the money and actually prove them wrong. What does anyone have to lose. If you win you get the money (a lot of money to boot also) but if you lose you are not out of nothing. The bet never said you would have to pay Richard $5000 if you are wrong. Why not take the challenge. Just my thoughts. ------------------ |
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